420/Judd

marymay · Post by **marymay** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:19 am

Amherst appears to have had six boys who got 420 this year. Most if not all of those will be destined for Judd. I wonder if the mark needed to get into Judd this year is getting close to 420?

Anybody know how many boys got 420 at other primary and private schools in the area that traditionally send a lot of boys to Judd? For example: Bidborough, Claremont Primary, Hilden Grange, St John's (Tunbridge Wells), St Katherine's (Knockholt), Lady Boswell's, St Michaels, New Beacon School, Rose Hill School, Woodlands, Yardley Court, etc.

tired_dad_2008 · Post by **tired_dad_2008** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:28 am

I wouldn't worry about the Judd score getting that high, to be honest. It is not unusual to have clusters of 420s in some years in individual primary schools. For example, in a much smaller Sevenoaks area primary school (class of 23 pupils last year) there were seven kids with 420s last year. Just happened to be an unusually bright year group.

Also there are quite a few kids with 420s who choose to go private in the end rather than go for Judd/ Skinners.

tonbridgemum · Post by **tonbridgemum** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:41 am

Out of interest, do Amherst coach their pupils? Would be interested to see if this had had an impact.

marymay · Post by **marymay** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:42 am

As I said most if not all of these boys will be going state.

Accepted that as a matter of statistics there will always be clusters in any large dataset. But on the other hand it is quite possible that the severe problems to do with admissions to boys grammar schools in West Kent has resulted in local parents investing more and more resources (tutors, software, books, one-on-one at home) into the 11+ process to get 420, basically what you need to be pretty sure of a place in Judd, than they might have done in an area with community grammar schools.

This, in turn, may well have resulted in a permanent shift in the distribution of higher 11+ marks towards a higher concentration of 420 in West Kent. There are, after all, vast amounts of time, money and effort being channelled into the 11+ industry locally. It is difficult to believe that that is not having at least some effect locally.

That's why it would be good to get a sense as to what is happening in other schools locally to see if Amherst is a statistical 'blip'.

PS Amherst does not coach.

Kent99 · Post by **Kent99** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:11 pm

Well according to Judd's website about 50% of their intake score 420. They seem to have been quoting this figure for several years now. That's over 60 boys a year entering the school with that score and there will be other boys in the area with the same score who choose other schools (private or state).

I don't think, therefore, that I would read too much into the Amherst scores. Particularly as I understand that it is a large school in a well-heeled area, much sort after by "educationally aware" parents and has traditionally had a high success rate with entry to the Tonbridge grammars.

SSM · Post by **SSM** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:14 pm

If the scores are standardised, wouldn't the same number of pupils be scoring 420?

Admittedly, if children in West Kent had more tutoring then there might be a large cluster in this area.

The question to then ask if children in the rest of Kent had lower scores.

Villagedad · Post by **Villagedad** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:16 pm

marymay wrote:But on the other hand it is quite possible that the severe problems to do with admissions to boys grammar schools in West Kent has resulted in local parents investing more and more resources (tutors, software, books, one-on-one at home) into the 11+ process to get 420, basically what you need to be pretty sure of a place in Judd, than they might have done in an area with community grammar schools.

This, in turn, may well have resulted in a permanent shift in the distribution of higher 11+ marks towards a higher concentration of 420 in West Kent. There are, after all, vast amounts of time, money and effort being channelled into the 11+ industry locally. It is difficult to believe that that is not having at least some effect locally.

Would love to know what one needs to do if you have a bright child to guarantee getting a 420...

I.e. when to start the build up, what materials you need, when to employ tutors etc etc.., as state school children are competing with private school children for the same places, and as we know its not a level playing field with private school children getting 'coached' at school, often from year 3 in maths, VR, and NVR..

Any PM's or guidance on this forum would be welcomed

marymay · Post by **marymay** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:19 pm

Kent99 wrote:Well according to Judd's website about 50% of their intake score 420. They seem to have been quoting this figure for several years now.

Doesn't the suspiciously vague/rounded figure plus the fact that they haven't revised it in years suggest that it's not actually something they actively look at but is just a figure they throw out year after year?

marymay · Post by **marymay** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:21 pm

SSM wrote:If the scores are standardised, wouldn't the same number of pupils be scoring 420?

Yes but it's the shifts in the distribution across the county over time that is the key issue.

Kent99 · Post by **Kent99** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:59 pm

Marymary
The Judd document I referred to was clearly updated this year as it gives 2009 cut-offs. I think the school would have mentioned it if the proportion scoring 420 had risen significantly, let alone towards 100%! The fact that cut off scores do not appear to be rising also suggests that what you saw at Amherst is just par for the course.

No doubt all will be revealed in March. But do bear in mind that 420 does not mean full marks in the papers. Would it sound less awful to say that the way things are going boys may soon need to score about 75% in each paper to get into Judd?