chances at appeal - any advice gratefully received
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tottington
- Posts: 60
- Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:22 pm
chances at appeal - any advice gratefully received
Hi,
I'm new to this and have the following query:
our child scored 117 and 108 (sigh) respectively (no extenuating circumstances (bigger sigh).
CAT score 141 (end of year 5/ VR 141, Non-VR 133, QR 107)
Literacy level 5 (end of year 5)
Maths 4a (end of year 5 - is in top set)
Science 4b (as above - now works at level 5b as stated in HT summary sheet)
Strong HT support: 2.2
predicted KS2 SATs level 5b in all 3 subjects (states literacy 5a in CAT assessment).
I'm particularly worried about science 4b and the quantitative reasoning score of 107 (because we're 4 points off the mark). What kind of evidence of academic ability would be particularly useful to include?
Any advice would be gratefully received - and I'd also like to say how helpful and informative I've found this forum.
Many thanks
I'm new to this and have the following query:
our child scored 117 and 108 (sigh) respectively (no extenuating circumstances (bigger sigh).
CAT score 141 (end of year 5/ VR 141, Non-VR 133, QR 107)
Literacy level 5 (end of year 5)
Maths 4a (end of year 5 - is in top set)
Science 4b (as above - now works at level 5b as stated in HT summary sheet)
Strong HT support: 2.2
predicted KS2 SATs level 5b in all 3 subjects (states literacy 5a in CAT assessment).
I'm particularly worried about science 4b and the quantitative reasoning score of 107 (because we're 4 points off the mark). What kind of evidence of academic ability would be particularly useful to include?
Any advice would be gratefully received - and I'd also like to say how helpful and informative I've found this forum.
Many thanks
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tottington
- Posts: 60
- Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:22 pm
Forgot to say that I'm of course also worried about the low 108 VR test score (2nd paper) - the reason given was that DC couldn't concentrate and when I tried to elicit more details DC said 'I don't want to talk about it anymore', so I left it.
During the first test one child got upset (started to cry), had to be removed, was then brought back into the room, got upset again and had to be removed again. Discussed this with head, but he felt that it was dealt with so quickly that it wouldn't have had an impact on the test result. And anyway, I wouldn't be able to prove anything, so haven't mentioned it in the documents I submitted (am thinking about sending in more evidence - hence original question).
During the first test one child got upset (started to cry), had to be removed, was then brought back into the room, got upset again and had to be removed again. Discussed this with head, but he felt that it was dealt with so quickly that it wouldn't have had an impact on the test result. And anyway, I wouldn't be able to prove anything, so haven't mentioned it in the documents I submitted (am thinking about sending in more evidence - hence original question).
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Sally-Anne
- Posts: 9235
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:10 pm
- Location: Buckinghamshire
Hi tottington
Your DC is a conundrum! The very high VR/NVR CAT scores suggest that there is a real mis-match between your DC's ability and the final 11+ score, and I think the panel will raise their eyebrows at that.
With weaker QR and a lower level SATs in maths, you may find that the maths questions (2 sets on each paper) were the problem?
The CAT scores (when available), Head's summary and school reports are the main evidence you need. School books can be taken to the hearing.
Heads are often reluctant to admit that there was any disruption during the tests. When the panel ask you can give "just a little mention" that a crying child was removed, returned and removed again
Sally-Anne
Your DC is a conundrum! The very high VR/NVR CAT scores suggest that there is a real mis-match between your DC's ability and the final 11+ score, and I think the panel will raise their eyebrows at that.
With weaker QR and a lower level SATs in maths, you may find that the maths questions (2 sets on each paper) were the problem?
The CAT scores (when available), Head's summary and school reports are the main evidence you need. School books can be taken to the hearing.
Heads are often reluctant to admit that there was any disruption during the tests. When the panel ask you can give "just a little mention" that a crying child was removed, returned and removed again
Sally-Anne
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tottington
- Posts: 60
- Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:22 pm
Hi Sally-Ann,
many thanks for responding so quickly to my query.
I can imagine that he may have taken a little longer on the maths, but I don't really want to ask him now. As far as he's concerned he'll be going to an upper school and is now looking forward to it, and the 11+ has been consigned to history.
Would the comparatively low QR score together with a 4a in maths at end of year 5 suggest that he's not up to it? He's predicted a level 5b in maths in his KS 2 SATs, is in the top set and is currently doing really well .
How do these CAT scores translate into overall ability, i.e. VR scores into English, QR score into maths, NVR score (don't know its application).
Does this apparent mismatch in CAT scores/11+ results happen very often?
I suppose at the end of the day children just aren't robots - but I imagine I can't say that at the appeal (got my date today - always something to look forward to, never a dull moment
).
Hope this is not too rambling!
Many thanks again
many thanks for responding so quickly to my query.
I can imagine that he may have taken a little longer on the maths, but I don't really want to ask him now. As far as he's concerned he'll be going to an upper school and is now looking forward to it, and the 11+ has been consigned to history.
Would the comparatively low QR score together with a 4a in maths at end of year 5 suggest that he's not up to it? He's predicted a level 5b in maths in his KS 2 SATs, is in the top set and is currently doing really well .
How do these CAT scores translate into overall ability, i.e. VR scores into English, QR score into maths, NVR score (don't know its application).
Does this apparent mismatch in CAT scores/11+ results happen very often?
I suppose at the end of the day children just aren't robots - but I imagine I can't say that at the appeal (got my date today - always something to look forward to, never a dull moment
).Hope this is not too rambling!
Many thanks again
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Sally-Anne
- Posts: 9235
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:10 pm
- Location: Buckinghamshire
Hi tottington
However both the VR and NVR scores are within the "gifted" range (130 - 141), and the chance of those having been blips is almost zero.
CATs are not directly comparable to the Bucks 11+, but on VR 141 there is a huge margin for error between the 117/108 and the CATs. It does suggest very strongly that your son simply underperformed for no very good reason.
Sally-Anne
The QR score is "comparatively low", but still at the top end of the average range (89 - 111). It could have been a "blip" on the day he did the CATs.tottington wrote: Would the comparatively low QR score together with a 4a in maths at end of year 5 suggest that he's not up to it? He's predicted a level 5b in maths in his KS 2 SATs, is in the top set and is currently doing really well.
However both the VR and NVR scores are within the "gifted" range (130 - 141), and the chance of those having been blips is almost zero.
CATs are not directly comparable to the Bucks 11+, but on VR 141 there is a huge margin for error between the 117/108 and the CATs. It does suggest very strongly that your son simply underperformed for no very good reason.
Sally-Anne
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tottington
- Posts: 60
- Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:22 pm
Hi Sally-Ann,
thanks again for your quick reply.
Half the battle seems to be to find out how to interpret the evidence of reasoning ability available. The Head never mentioned NVR score and concentrated solely on the VR score, so it's good to know that this might actually be quite useful information.
I suppose all I can do is hope for the best and expect the worst, as it says elsewhere on this forum, present my evidence as calmly and coherently as possible, not to make too much of the interruption during the 1st test and essentially be honest when answering questions.
How important do you think are the workbooks in this case? I know he's produced some very good work since the start of year 6 (have sent in photocopies of examples, but it seems that may not have been such a good idea after all), but I don't think they're overflowing with 'excellent' and 'outstanding' comments.
Many thanks
thanks again for your quick reply.
Half the battle seems to be to find out how to interpret the evidence of reasoning ability available. The Head never mentioned NVR score and concentrated solely on the VR score, so it's good to know that this might actually be quite useful information.
I suppose all I can do is hope for the best and expect the worst, as it says elsewhere on this forum, present my evidence as calmly and coherently as possible, not to make too much of the interruption during the 1st test and essentially be honest when answering questions.
How important do you think are the workbooks in this case? I know he's produced some very good work since the start of year 6 (have sent in photocopies of examples, but it seems that may not have been such a good idea after all), but I don't think they're overflowing with 'excellent' and 'outstanding' comments.
Many thanks
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Sally-Anne
- Posts: 9235
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:10 pm
- Location: Buckinghamshire
Hi tottington
School books are quite important, but the usual problem is the absence of any actual marks or grades in them!
The teachers frequently record the child's attainment levels for their information, assessments, etc, but for whatever reason, that information never finds it's way into the books.
If your child's class teacher is being cooperative, you might ask him/her to take 15 minutes to mark them more fully between now and the appeal.
Sally-Anne
School books are quite important, but the usual problem is the absence of any actual marks or grades in them!
The teachers frequently record the child's attainment levels for their information, assessments, etc, but for whatever reason, that information never finds it's way into the books.
If your child's class teacher is being cooperative, you might ask him/her to take 15 minutes to mark them more fully between now and the appeal.
Sally-Anne
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tottington
- Posts: 60
- Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:22 pm
Hi Sally-Anne,
I'll do that (the teacher is very supportive).
I can't tell you how helpful your advice has been - we appealed some years ago (older child) and the appeal wasn't upheld (but the 12+ went ok and a GS place was offered
). I still remember getting the 'thanks, but no thanks' letter - it's as if someone punched you in the stomach. 
We just didn't know what we were doing and looking back, the case was pretty hopeless to start with. At least I know what I'll feel like if turns out to be bad news...
Could you hazard a guess as to what our chances of a successful outcome might be in this case?
Again, thank you for your time!
I'll do that (the teacher is very supportive).
I can't tell you how helpful your advice has been - we appealed some years ago (older child) and the appeal wasn't upheld (but the 12+ went ok and a GS place was offered
). I still remember getting the 'thanks, but no thanks' letter - it's as if someone punched you in the stomach. We just didn't know what we were doing and looking back, the case was pretty hopeless to start with. At least I know what I'll feel like if turns out to be bad news...Could you hazard a guess as to what our chances of a successful outcome might be in this case?
Again, thank you for your time!
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Sally-Anne
- Posts: 9235
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:10 pm
- Location: Buckinghamshire
Hi tottington
... not an easy business!
I wish you the best of luck - and thank you so much for your kind words.
Sally-Anne
Been there, done it, got the souvenir t-shirt on exactly that process, including the 12+ success and GS placetottington wrote:I can't tell you how helpful your advice has been - we appealed some years ago (older child) and the appeal wasn't upheld (but the 12+ went ok and a GS place was offered
... not an easy business! Whatever chances I give you - 50/50 would be my current guess, without all the information - you already know that it is the wrong 50% that will hurt. Even on 90/10 it is the 10% that would be so difficult to deal with. Statistics are really not helpful. The important thing is to decide what your child will do next if the appeal fails. That gives you all the reassurance that you have something else instead.Could you hazard a guess as to what our chances of a successful outcome might be in this case?
I wish you the best of luck - and thank you so much for your kind words.
Sally-Anne
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tottington
- Posts: 60
- Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:22 pm
Hi Sally-Anne,
yes, I suppose guesses don't help!
He won't know if the appeal fails (we didn't tell him that we were going to appeal - having been really disappointed once we felt that it wouldn't be fair to get his hopes up again only to possibly be told a second time that it didn't go according to plan), and if it does fail we'll go for the 12+ plus (in fact 2 of our children went through the 12+ successfully, and they're both really happy at grammar and doing well).
The bottom line is that even if it goes wrong life just does not fall apart simply because of a failed 11+. It's too complex to reduce it to just that (this is actually our fourth 11+, but thankfully the last one - I do feel that we've been through quite a few of the possible scenarios with all the attendant ups and downs... 'battle worn' is the word that springs to mind, but you just move on).
On this note I'd like to wish everyone out there who's currently stuck in the 11+ loop the best of luck!!!! - What a start to the new year!
I'll let you know how it went (our date is the 18th January).
See you in 2010
yes, I suppose guesses don't help!
He won't know if the appeal fails (we didn't tell him that we were going to appeal - having been really disappointed once we felt that it wouldn't be fair to get his hopes up again only to possibly be told a second time that it didn't go according to plan), and if it does fail we'll go for the 12+ plus (in fact 2 of our children went through the 12+ successfully, and they're both really happy at grammar and doing well).
The bottom line is that even if it goes wrong life just does not fall apart simply because of a failed 11+. It's too complex to reduce it to just that (this is actually our fourth 11+, but thankfully the last one
- I do feel that we've been through quite a few of the possible scenarios with all the attendant ups and downs... 'battle worn' is the word that springs to mind, but you just move on). On this note I'd like to wish everyone out there who's currently stuck in the 11+ loop the best of luck!!!! - What a start to the new year!
I'll let you know how it went (our date is the 18th January).
See you in 2010
