Difficult subject...
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Difficult subject...
Are others aware of some of the Sunday canditates having a better chance of passing in Ilford than Saturday because the two papers are the same and some tutors are getting sufficient information from the Saturday children to tutor the Sunday kids?
I spoke to redbridge council and they seemed horrified but this is not a new thing (apparently). They asked me for tutor names - but I pointed out that by telling them the name of one tutor is not going to help as it is happening widespread in Redbridge. I suggested that the council should consider options like:
1. sitting the exam in one day (like in Essex)
2. having separate papers over the two days
3. or "normalising" the exams different across the two days
I prefer the same day for all option - as the others are not fair on kids who are not tutored on the Saturday night.
I was in two minds about posting this message. I may leave the post over tonight and then delete it. I don't know what the ranting will achieve - as i said, i spoke directly to the council who sympathised and then asked me for tutor names. I firmly believe their process is wrong and leaves too much opportunity for cheating....unfortunately.
I spoke to redbridge council and they seemed horrified but this is not a new thing (apparently). They asked me for tutor names - but I pointed out that by telling them the name of one tutor is not going to help as it is happening widespread in Redbridge. I suggested that the council should consider options like:
1. sitting the exam in one day (like in Essex)
2. having separate papers over the two days
3. or "normalising" the exams different across the two days
I prefer the same day for all option - as the others are not fair on kids who are not tutored on the Saturday night.
I was in two minds about posting this message. I may leave the post over tonight and then delete it. I don't know what the ranting will achieve - as i said, i spoke directly to the council who sympathised and then asked me for tutor names. I firmly believe their process is wrong and leaves too much opportunity for cheating....unfortunately.
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Sally-Anne
- Posts: 9235
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:10 pm
- Location: Buckinghamshire
Hi TP123
You certainly have my permission as a Senior Mod to leave this post on here unless anyone has a serious objection. It should be discussed openly.
This Forum is here to inform parents about the 11+ process, but also to prevent and expose cheating.
I am glad that Redbridge has acknowledged the problem, but my question would be what they are going to do about it?!
You should not be asked for tutor names. Redbridge should acknowledge that this is an appalling hole in the security of their tests and do something about it!
In Bucks we had a brief security incident this year and the Admissions Authority dealt with it very swiftly. Redbridge are suggesting that this has been going on for some time and yet they have no answers?
Redbridge is not a "model" Admissions Authority in my experience. If you have the time and energy to take this further you should do so.
Just my opinion though!
Sally-Anne
You certainly have my permission as a Senior Mod to leave this post on here unless anyone has a serious objection. It should be discussed openly.
This Forum is here to inform parents about the 11+ process, but also to prevent and expose cheating.
I am glad that Redbridge has acknowledged the problem, but my question would be what they are going to do about it?!
You should not be asked for tutor names. Redbridge should acknowledge that this is an appalling hole in the security of their tests and do something about it!
In Bucks we had a brief security incident this year and the Admissions Authority dealt with it very swiftly. Redbridge are suggesting that this has been going on for some time and yet they have no answers?
Redbridge is not a "model" Admissions Authority in my experience. If you have the time and energy to take this further you should do so.
Just my opinion though!
Sally-Anne
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hermanmunster
- Posts: 12894
- Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:51 am
- Location: The Seaside
even if there is no actual advantage to the kids in the sunday (as this would require getting hold of accurate info re the saturday test and also suitable tutoring to make the most of it on a saturday evening (ugh),) Redbridge must do something about it as most people reading this would feel it was unfair to the saturday kids..
Can imagine that if your child did not pass on the saturday you would have a persistent niggly feeling that maybe they would have on the sunday.. Can almost imagine the need to develop religious or cultural reasons for not doing exam on saturday (used to happen at KES B'ham - not sure if it still does).
Can imagine that if your child did not pass on the saturday you would have a persistent niggly feeling that maybe they would have on the sunday.. Can almost imagine the need to develop religious or cultural reasons for not doing exam on saturday (used to happen at KES B'ham - not sure if it still does).
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wanting the best
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:15 pm
I am not from this area but if I were I would be absolutely horrified. If true how dare the tutors do this? Its not ethical at all. Maybe the tutors should be named and shamed. If you were getting your DC tutored for what ever reason you would assume that he/she was being treated the same way as the rest of the DC. A year before the test you would have no way of knowing if you were going to do the test on sat or Sun. Then if you did it on Sat and the tutor asked for info to help the Sun DC I would ask for a refund!! Test on one day seems to be the fairest way. Maybe if enough Redbridge parents complained the powers that be will do something. Please do not delete the thread as this is a very important matter and good on you for bringing it to everyone's attention.
Unfair
I am horrified to hear that the Sunday paper is the same as the Saturday one - it is totally unfair and puts the Sunday students at an advantage, as after any exam questions and answers are discussed. I thought the papers were different. 
I think Redbridge needs to have a revamp on the way tests are administered and should compare the percantage pass rate of Sat. candidates compared to Sunday ones.
Really they should only allow the test to take place on one day.
I don't know how any parent could live with getting a child into a school by lying any way - its totally wrong and unfair to those who have worked hard to try to earn their place.
I think Redbridge needs to have a revamp on the way tests are administered and should compare the percantage pass rate of Sat. candidates compared to Sunday ones.
Really they should only allow the test to take place on one day.
I don't know how any parent could live with getting a child into a school by lying any way - its totally wrong and unfair to those who have worked hard to try to earn their place.
all children (and their very interested parents!!!) should refuse to say a word to anyone!
Playing devil's advocate here, though, what format do the tests take? Ours are VR and so remembering individual questions isn't really applicable. I could imagine story writing being a very different matter though. Could it also be counter-productive - the children struggling to remember one or two things which will help them and letting them dominate over an overall neutral approach to the exam. Having snippets of supposedly helpful info might actually work against them.
Why are they taken over 2 days anyway? Pressure of numbers?
Playing devil's advocate here, though, what format do the tests take? Ours are VR and so remembering individual questions isn't really applicable. I could imagine story writing being a very different matter though. Could it also be counter-productive - the children struggling to remember one or two things which will help them and letting them dominate over an overall neutral approach to the exam. Having snippets of supposedly helpful info might actually work against them.
Why are they taken over 2 days anyway? Pressure of numbers?
[img]http://sl.glitter-graphics.net/pub/47/47055t4vjrz296r.gif[/img]
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Trixystone
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:54 am
I have in the past heard of a tutor asking her students to either memorise or write down specific questions, so if for example she had 30 students, she would tell one student to bring back question 1 and question 30, and another student to bring back questions 2 and 31, etc etc, and therefore would in effect get either the majority of the test paper or all questions in one particular subject of weakness (e.g. codes, vocab, etc), if each student carried out their part of the task. This particular case happened about 12 years ago and I am sure that in this case one of the students reported what she was doing to the council, however I do not know how, if at all, she was punished for this.
Thinking about this instance, and if this practice is still wide-spread and happening in Redbridge today, which according to the above appears to be the case, it is very worrying as tutors are not just getting a gist of the types of questions on the test, they are getting the actual questions on the test and as a result its not a case of them tutoring their students on Saturday night on subjects such as codes or vocabulary etc, they are able to tell their students each actual question and give them the answers as well.
Maybe we should all, in the name of fairness, demand some sort of statement from Redbridge Council, as to what measures they put in place to ensure the children who took the test on Sunday were at no advantage to the children on Saturday. Maybe they did put something in place and once we have knowledge of this it will abate our fears. I do think if enough parents voice our concerns, they would be more likely to respond.
Thinking about this instance, and if this practice is still wide-spread and happening in Redbridge today, which according to the above appears to be the case, it is very worrying as tutors are not just getting a gist of the types of questions on the test, they are getting the actual questions on the test and as a result its not a case of them tutoring their students on Saturday night on subjects such as codes or vocabulary etc, they are able to tell their students each actual question and give them the answers as well.
Maybe we should all, in the name of fairness, demand some sort of statement from Redbridge Council, as to what measures they put in place to ensure the children who took the test on Sunday were at no advantage to the children on Saturday. Maybe they did put something in place and once we have knowledge of this it will abate our fears. I do think if enough parents voice our concerns, they would be more likely to respond.
I am not involved in this at all but if I were in this position I would think seriously about involving the media - at the very least it should force the authority to explain what precautions are in place to protect the integrity of the test being duplicated on the 2nd day.
If the authority cannot provide evidence that steps are in place to guard against 'cheating' then aren't there grounds for unsuccessful applicants from the Saturday to lodge an appeal?
For tutors to put children under pressure to 'cheat' either by bringing out the questions or perhaps unwittingly using that information is dreadful. I'm not for one minute questioning those who have reported it - it just very hard to take in!
If the authority cannot provide evidence that steps are in place to guard against 'cheating' then aren't there grounds for unsuccessful applicants from the Saturday to lodge an appeal?
For tutors to put children under pressure to 'cheat' either by bringing out the questions or perhaps unwittingly using that information is dreadful. I'm not for one minute questioning those who have reported it - it just very hard to take in!
Wouldn't you be wary of such a request (if you were a Saturday parent?)