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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:05 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:48 am
Posts: 17
Hi all,

Thanks for this forum and guidance provided. I am new so all the information provided is very helpful.

My daughter got 120 in her Bucks 11+ exam.

A summary of her background:
1. Born in the UK, was here till age 5, then went back to India and did schooling for four years there. She completed Year 3 before coming back to the UK
2. Last year May 2017, we came back but got to know from the school that for her date of birth, the next year would be Year 5 and not Year 4.
3. She has done half of summer term of Year 4 and started on Year 5. In terms of learning, she has missed 95% of Year 4.
4. We started on grammar preparation last year by end of August. Not knowing the extent of preparation needed, we enrolled her for private tutoring.
5. She is attending an independent all-thorough school, who are not very happy recommending a student from their school to another senior school. So I do not have much support from the Head Teacher there.

So first question, does the above information help in anyway for the appeal - student from abroad and missed a year of education?
Secondly, I have reports of Year 5 with me but do we need more from the years before?

What other evidence can I provide for my case?

Also what is the difference between appeal and review?

Your time and help is much appreciated.

Kind regards,
Sri.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:10 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:26 pm
Posts: 8002
Welcome!

Quote:
Also what is the difference between appeal and review?
The first thing is to make sure you read all the guidance.
For example:

here.

and here.

and here.

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Etienne


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:52 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:48 am
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Thank you, I will. I have read partly and have taken the day off today to complete the reading and to take some actions.

Additionally, to my above post, daughter was unwell during the exam times. We visited the GP for it, she was down with viral infection. Does this add any value to the extenuating circumstance?

I really need that clarification on whether mentioning about her missing a year will aid the appeal or create a negative impact?

Thanks once again.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:14 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:33 pm
Posts: 1762
The illness is a tricky one because the guidance is that if you send your child to take the test, you have deemed them well enough to do so. If there's any doubt as to their fitness or health, the advice is to not take the test and do it on another date as soon as they are well again. It means you can't really use the illness as an extenuating circumstance.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:18 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:26 pm
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Quote:
daughter was unwell during the exam times. We visited the GP for it, she was down with viral infection. Does this add any value to the extenuating circumstance?
You may as well provide the evidence of illness - but as anotherdad points out - if you sent her in for the test, you were in effect saying she was fit to take the test. That is how it will be viewed.

Quote:
Secondly, I have reports of Year 5 with me but do we need more from the years before?
Difficult to say whether they would add value to your case. Did the school follow the English curriculum? Will there be 'hard data' that the panel can understand?

Quote:
clarification on whether mentioning about her missing a year
It's certainly worth a mention, but what really matters is (a) whether she was making excellent progress beforehand, and (b) whether she is overcoming the difficulties and making rapid progress now.

The problem with (a), if it was an Indian curriculum, is that the panel will have no idea whether standards are comparable.

The problem with (b) is that the panel would expect to see Key Stage 2 predictions of 111-120 and "Greater Depth", but the independent school probably has a different system of assessment, and it sounds as if they might not be particularly co-operative.

Have you finished reading the Q&As?
https://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/appea ... cation#b19
An educational psychologist's report might possibly have been helpful in this situation - depending on the results - but I'm not sure you could get one in time for a review.

The best part of your case that I've seen so far is that there was a score of 120! :)

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Etienne


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:22 pm 
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Etienne wrote:
Quote:
daughter was unwell during the exam times. We visited the GP for it, she was down with viral infection. Does this add any value to the extenuating circumstance?
You may as well provide the evidence of illness - but as anotherdad points out - if you sent her in for the test, you were in effect saying she was fit to take the test. That is how it will be viewed.

I really do not wish to add the medical record as a major evidence, this will be just an addition. Maybe as a last point. Because flu is not an extenuating situation...it was mainly fatigue.

Quote:
Secondly, I have reports of Year 5 with me but do we need more from the years before?
Difficult to say whether they would add value to your case. Did the school follow the English curriculum? Will there be 'hard data' that the panel can understand?

She did learn in an English school, in a very high academic school in India, but again these schools are not globally recognized. All reports are in English, I will add it to my case. Please advise if u feel otherwise.

Quote:
clarification on whether mentioning about her missing a year
It's certainly worth a mention, but what really matters is (a) whether she was making excellent progress beforehand, and (b) whether she is overcoming the difficulties and making rapid progress now.

The problem with (a), if it was an Indian curriculum, is that the panel will have no idea whether standards are comparable.

The problem with (b) is that the panel would expect to see Key Stage 2 predictions of 111-120 and "Greater Depth", but the independent school probably has a different system of assessment, and it sounds as if they might not be particularly co-operative.

My daughter has rapidly progressed, in fact she was moved from a lower group in Maths to the highest group. She was given a cape recognizing her effort to make it to the higher position. And Year 5 she has consistently risen in her grades.

Only setback is, assessment in her school is in terms of exceeds expectations, expected and emergent levels. So as pointed out in your site about panel not able to decipher how far the child is above expectations.


Have you finished reading the Q&As?
https://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/appea ... cation#b19

I have read the Q&A topic #B19. Firstly, there is no concept of grammar or 11+ in India. So the entire process we went through was new for us. Secondly, reading and writing was present in India too, but the finesse and content of reading has massively improved for my daughter after coming here. She is a voracious reader, but expecting a 2+ years reading ability...not sure if she is there yet.

An educational psychologist's report might possibly have been helpful in this situation - depending on the results - but I'm not sure you could get one in time for a review.

I will try my best to get an educational psychologists review, would an independent person's review help too? I know there is some help provided in Bucks site, but going through that channel may not be possible within the time frame. So can I use a private one?

The best part of your case that I've seen so far is that there was a score of 120! :)


You bet! Only concern is, my daughter use to always score >95% in NVR in practice papers, but she has scored the lowest in Bucks exam. 116.0

I do strongly believe that my daughter is a fast learner and has progressed in her learning considering a year missed and change in systems. Another point is she is a very confident, well spoken, brave person......given a chance she can project a few points on her own for the appeal...

Lastly, I read that parents are excluded from the panel review, is this true?

I am still reading your site.

Thanks very much again....


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:29 pm 
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Yes, a review is sat behind closed doors and is a paper exercise. An appeal is different and you can attend to present your case. Do make sure you read the guidance and understand the difference between the two and the consequences of choosing one or the other.

Don't even contemplate taking your daughter to an appeal if you go down that route, no matter how confident she might be.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:48 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:26 pm
Posts: 8002
Quote:
would an independent person's review help too?
I'm very doubtful, but I don't know exactly what you have in mind. If it's a tutor, absolutely not.
In what way would this person be qualified, fully independent, and able to provide proper evidence that your daughter's ability puts her at (for example) the 90th percentile nationally?

The point about chartered educational psychologists is that they are very highly qualified for this type of assessment. They are regulated, with accreditation through the BPS, and there is now a requirement that they are registered with the Health Professions Council.

Quote:
a very high academic school in India
Worth mentioning. Whether it is possible to provide convincing evidence to support this, I don't know.

Quote:
My daughter has rapidly progressed
Evidence of really rapid progress would be helpful.

Quote:
Only setback is, assessment in her school is in terms of exceeds expectations, expected and emergent levels. So as pointed out in your site about panel not able to decipher how far the child is above expectations.
You're right to notice that this is a problem. Grammar school standard is well above expectations.

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Etienne


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:11 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:48 am
Posts: 17
anotherdad wrote:
Yes, a review is sat behind closed doors and is a paper exercise. An appeal is different and you can attend to present your case. Do make sure you read the guidance and understand the difference between the two and the consequences of choosing one or the other.

Don't even contemplate taking your daughter to an appeal if you go down that route, no matter how confident she might be.


Thanks for the advice, I wouldn't. Just that there are times she is so much more independent and clear than me.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:16 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:48 am
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Etienne wrote:
Quote:
would an independent person's review help too?
I'm very doubtful, but I don't know exactly what you have in mind. If it's a tutor, absolutely not.
In what way would this person be qualified, fully independent, and able to provide proper evidence that your daughter's ability puts her at (for example) the 90th percentile nationally?

The point about chartered educational psychologists is that they are very highly qualified for this type of assessment. They are regulated, with accreditation through the BPS, and there is now a requirement that they are registered with the Health Professions Council.

What I meant was an independent educational psychologist, not a tutor or anyone else.

Quote:
a very high academic school in India
Worth mentioning. Whether it is possible to provide convincing evidence to support this, I don't know.

I do have her reports / scores from there. It would be difficult to get anything more than that.
Quote:
My daughter has rapidly progressed
Evidence of really rapid progress would be helpful.

Quote:
Only setback is, assessment in her school is in terms of exceeds expectations, expected and emergent levels. So as pointed out in your site about panel not able to decipher how far the child is above expectations.
You're right to notice that this is a problem. Grammar school standard is well above expectations.


Ok, while I went missing for the last 36 hours, I have completed the below tasks:

1. Convinced the Head Teacher of her current school to give me a letter - it is ready and I will collect tomorrow from school.
2. Collected a letter from GP too as a note that she was unwell during her exam. Again, this is not what I would focus on.
3. Spoke to EP's and finally fixed for an assessment next week.
4. In the background, I have read your non-qualification FAQ's - trying to create a good cover letter to go with the above.

Please advice if I am on the right track.

Thanks again.
Sri.


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