Half of grammar children from prep schools?

[Guest55]

Who is going to 'shop' the school though?

[Catherine]

Can I throw another consideration into this debate? It has been stated in a number of places that children at prep schools are at an advantage because their schools can offer as much 11+ preparation as they wish. However, the the following rather lengthy quote is taken from '11+ TRANSFER TO SECONDARY SCHOOL HEADTEACHERS’ MANUAL', (http://www.buckscc.gov.uk/schools/docum ... 1_plus.pdf ) clearly states that (for partner schools, at least), this is forbidden. Assuming that the headteachers of these schools are signing their declarations honestly (see body of quote below), then if a higher percentage of prep school children do get into grammar, then it is not because of their schools' 11+ preparation.

I think that there is a big difference in the way different schools approach the 11+, whether they are state or independant.
Some schools give a minimal amount of information to parents and strictly advise according to Bucks CC guidelines (no coaching is necessary). Many parents in my area still go along with the official advice, and don't do any preparation.
Other schools offer a lot of support and activily advise about tuition and tutors. It has to make a difference.

[Dad40]

Some schools give a minimal amount of information to parents and strictly advise according to Bucks CC guidelines (no coaching is necessary). Many parents in my area still go along with the official advice, and don't do any preparation

Then either the schools or the parents have been misinformed. The policy of minimal familiarsiation applies to the schools themselves, not the parents.

Separate point in the context of "cheating" schools and prep schools doing better: what is extra coaching/tutoring/11+ training anyway ?

Is it taking the kids through example 11+ questions? Yes
Is it taking them through 11+ practice papers in school ? Yes
Is it pushing them a bit harder in English lessons ? Errr
Is it giving them new vocab to learn each week ? Errrr, well.....
Is it having a monthly lesson on word play ? Ummmmm
Is it introducing them to foreign languages early ? Eh, surely....
Is it introducing them to a wide range of life experiences ? Maybe not
Is it making them watch The Two Ronnies sketch about Fork Candles ? Now you're just being silly...

etc etc etc

I suspect prep schools score on a lot of these points where state schools do not.

And if I was investing £50K per child, I'd d*mn well expect my money back if they weren't getting all of the above !

[Catherine]

Some schools give a minimal amount of information to parents and strictly advise according to Bucks CC guidelines (no coaching is necessary). Many parents in my area still go along with the official advice, and don't do any preparation

Then either the schools or the parents have been misinformed. The policy of minimal familiarsiation applies to the schools themselves, not the parents.

It didn't say familiarisation, but advice and information. They don't tutor themselves but make it clear that tutoring is a necessity and help with the choice of tutor.

As for your point about how to define is extra tutoring, I agree entirely. Would it be against the rule to include verbal reasoning type puzzles in vocab lessons?

[Sally-Anne]

Then either the schools or the parents have been misinformed. The policy of minimal familiarsiation applies to the schools themselves, not the parents.

Separate point in the context of "cheating" schools and prep schools doing better: what is extra coaching/tutoring/11+ training anyway ?
do not.

Some state school Heads are so opposed to the 11+ that they do everything they can to keep parents in the dark.

In answer to the second point there are undoubtedly prep schools - and possibly even state schools - who provide lessons in verbal reasoning.
My feeling is that Bucks need to seriously review their policy on "coaching" by schools. Admissions themselves are concerned about the disparity in 11+ success between rich and poor areas of the County - Aylesbury Vale is a particular problem. The ability to pay for coaching must have an impact on this divide.

On both that point and the original point of the thread, I remembered this extract from County's own Admissions Forum minutes of May 2007:

Sally-Anne

"Members noted the higher qualification rate of those children attending independent schools and schools outside of Buckinghamshire. It was explained that all children in Buckinghamshire maintained schools took the 11+ tests unless their parents requested they be withdrawn. Children in independent and out of county schools opted into the testing process. As the details of the cohorts for these schools was not known by the LA it was not possible to draw a direct comparison with the maintained schools. Statistics gathered a few years ago suggested that the qualification rates were broadly similar.

However, the varying qualification rates across the county would be explored, particularly in the light of equality of opportunity for all children and social and cultural factors."

[Sally-Anne]

Just glancing at the Admissions Forum minutes once again and a very interesting fact emerges from the ethnicity breakdown of the 11+ results.

Needless to say the Prep (Bucks Partner school) cohort are predominantly White British (76%), with the second largest group being Asian Indian (13%).

What is staggering is the number of Asian Indians in the non-Bucks cohort - 27% of the Out of County cohort were Asian Indian. 326 Asian Indian children sat the 11+ from out-of-county, compared to 194 in the whole of Bucks.

(Note that all percentages are based on the total who declared their ethnic origin - just under 10% of applicants did not.)

Given the reputation of Indian parents for wanting their children to achieve, that goes a little further towards explaining the high pass rate for out-of-county schools.

You can see the tables here:
http://www.buckscc.gov.uk/cabinet_paper ... item6a.pdf

Sally-Anne

[Dad40]

It didn't say familiarisation, but advice and information.

AND

Some state school Heads are so opposed to the 11+ that they do everything they can to keep parents in the dark.

I see what you're both saying now, and yes I'm sure you are correct.

My feeling is that Bucks need to seriously review their policy on "coaching" by schools.

Sally-Anne, There we definitely agree

I'm interested that you say "Admissions themselves are concerned about the disparity in 11+ success between rich and poor areas". I don't see any outwards signs that they are concerned enough to do what seems obvious. Namely to sharply extend familiarisation hours.

And yet they have nothing to lose except their misplaced belief in the current policy. An increase would either:

1. Give parents confidence in the system (while making no difference to 11+ results just as BCC currently claim). Or

2. Actually make a difference to 11+ results and improve social mobility.

Or both.

PS: Very interesting insights into ethnicity breakdown !

[Sally-Anne]

An increase would either:

1. Give parents confidence in the system (while making no difference to 11+ results just as BCC currently claim). Or

2. Actually make a difference to 11+ results and improve social mobility.

Or both.

I also think that if they increased the amount of official familiarisation to an adequate level it would reduce the amount of external coaching that goes on, and thus begin to return the system to the "level playing field" that they are failing to create at present.

The victims of the current system are the very children that they express most concern about - children from poorer areas and from ethnic minorities.

Unfortunately, NFER continue to claim that coaching beyond the current official familiarisation adds no value. That is clear nonsense - the improvement in timing and technique with additional practice is obvious to anyone who has worked with a child on the 11+. Until Bucks stop blindly believing that NFER have all the answers, and take their heads out of the sand on the fact that richer parents buy coaching to fill the gap, nothing will change.

Sally-Anne

[Sally-Anne]

Going back to the ethnicity breakdown (which I have become slightly obsessed with - forgive me!) there are some very sad stats in the mix.

The pass rate for Pakistani children was a mere 12% (48 out of 393); for those of Black origin a mere 6% (7 out of 108); for Irish travellers and Romany children 25 children sat the exam and they all failed.

I think the last figure also helps toward explaining the lower overall pass rate in Bucks state schools. I would imagine that most traveller/Romany families will have allowed their child to sit the test just because it is there, as they would undoubtedly be moving on rather than staying in the area for 7 years of Grammar education.

It underlines the difference between the "opt-out system" in state schools and the "opt-in system" for Prep and out-of-county children.

Sally-Anne

[Dad40]

Agreed... with your post at 8:58.

Hopefully the political noise about this will just get louder. Perhaps it's time to write to one's MP.

I'm also kind of hoping that the Bucks Free Press will keep pursuing this. But despite all the noise they've made, I don't think they've really found the target yet.