Exam marking

[Watermelon8]

That was my point bananabrain. Rarely is a child completely untutored. Any extra prep whether at home or with a tutor is still tutoring & extremely beneficial!

[Amber]

I know a child who was genuinely, definitely, 100% untutored. From a home where there was no particular drive to assist with homework or interfere in any way with natural childhood - a very musical and artistic home. DC announced its intention to sit the test and as the older 3 siblings hadn't done so and hadn't had any tutoring, as well as family not being financially able to offer it, it didn't take place. I absolutely know this as mum is one of my best friends.

Child passed and got into Pates. Decided did not want to go for various reasons and now attends local school, walkable from home. Very happy and doing well.

Just saying - it can happen.

[Gotinonherownmerit]

Gotinonherownmerit, are you really saying that your dd did no practice papers or extra work at home at all? If not then that is the first time I have ever heard of a child passing without any prep at all so Well Done to her!!
On the other hand, I have always found this an honest site and one which is, on the whole, free of superiority. We all want the best for our children and we try hard to provide a happy learning environment whichever way we can.

Thanks. Now that I've calmed a bit (sorry it's just the comment about "how anyone could pass without being tutored" got my goat a little) I just wanted to say I find the whole competitive nature of tutoring a great shame, it seems like some sort of arms race or game of brinkmanship. I wish there was a 'reset' button where everyone calm down about tutoring and putting their kids under immense pressure from the age of 9.
I read recently that "the job of kids is to be kids". That's why I wanted my daughter to do this 'naturally' and on her own merit, rather than make a rod for her or my back later down the line.
There is of course no guarantee in life so we will see, but I think the approach is healthier if you like. Like I said, there were girls at HSFG on the day of the test bawling their eyes out and not wanting to go in. So I ask - how is that good for anyone involved in that?

[Eccentric]

My Dd had no tuition except the standard prep test and she didn't pass. She is now at GS (in on appeal and very happy and doing well). She is absolutely clear that without tuition in her words "no one could pass" Obviously there are going to be some that do so it is not as cut and dried as she suggests but she has a point I think. There were certain questions in the CEM that would take much longer to fathom out (a bright child would and could) and it is the time factor that would reduce their chances of passing against those that have been tutored in how to approach the questions, without that type of help I don't see how the untutored could keep up time wise with the tutored. One or two extra questions achieved can make the difference between getting a place or not.
I currently have a friend whose DS is about to do the 11 plus she is determined not to tutor as she calls it but doesn't think of showing her DS how to do the questions and giving him test on them as tuition, I think this may be the case with a number of people. There may be a misunderstanding about what tuition is.
I would suggest without a doubt that teaching the child how to approach the questions is an absolute must otherwise they may well be disadvantaged.
In regards to a lazy child. I would wonder if they would be happy in an environment where the majority are very motivated, but only you know your child. I think children tend to be happiest in an environment with at least a reasonable number of like minded peers. In regards to pressure I think it is hard to tell what is going to cause pressure. My Dd felt far more pressure being top all the time (she felt that she had to always maintain that place). Now that she is not top at everything at the GS she is much happier and accepts that she doesn't need to always be.

[Stressed?Moi?]

We home-tutored (didn't want/couldn't justify the cost of a formal tutor), as we didn't want to leave it to chance and were glad we did. We had some papers and ds did some computer prep (he was bored in the holidays anyway). I would recommend the mocks as they really helped him. For him, not to have been given some insight into time-management, staying calm, focussing on questions you can answer as a priority, getting used to the sounds/silence of an exam room etc would have been a disaster. Horses for courses and to pass when fully unprepared is awesome.

[Cup of tea]

There is of course no guarantee in life so we will see, but I think the approach is healthier if you like. Like I said, there were girls at HSFG on the day of the test bawling their eyes out and not wanting to go in. So I ask - how is that good for anyone involved in that?

Do you know what caused the girls tears? it could have been because they felt underprepared. It could be because they felt pressure, it could be because they are nervy kids. It could actually have been a multitude of reasons, none of which we know.
We put no pressure on our kids and always said we didn't mind if they got in or not (yes we did pay for a tutor, but this was rather to keep family stress to a minimum!) Even though we told them all this, they still got very nervous.
Really pleased that your DD passed, but I wonder - would you feel the same way if you did no prep at all and she came out in tears? (which I have seen happen).
I also really agree with eccentric's post (sorry don't have technical wizadry to copy it!) about what constitutes tutoring? Quite often parents say "we didn't tutor" but then it transpires that they had bought a practice paper, they had done a comprehension, or mental maths etc. We all want the best for our children, putting mine in for the gs was the most horrible thing I have done (and I work in education and have invigilated the tests, so was prepared for it!) It is a stressful experience and one which affects children in many different ways. In fact tears are one of the easier substances I have dealt with over the years.....

[Watermelon8]

Agree with all of the above. Any small amount of prep is still tutoring, it's not a 'dirty' word lol although it certainly seems like it! I know plenty of people who vehemently deny their child was tutored.....but did prep at home with them so they weren't completely thrown in the deep end. Whatever you want to call that, it is tutoring. My children didn't go to a 'tutor' but I know the work I did with them at home helped tremendously to get the school choices they had. As someone said, the margins are so tiny that even a few questions can make the difference btw getting a place or not. It's not fair, it is a game, I am completely against the whole tutoring thing but unfortunately I still stand by my original view that it is highly unlikely a child will get the school they want with absolutely no tutoring/prep. It's a rubbish system

[Gotinonherownmerit]

Really pleased that your DD passed, but I wonder - would you feel the same way if you did no prep at all and she came out in tears? (which I have seen happen).
:

Thanks. Regarding the above - she just not the kind to do that. She was very calm about the whole thing, when she came out I think we were the nervous parents but all she said was "..some bits were easy, some were hard, I tried my best and we'll see what happens.." which I thought was a pretty good outlook.
Had the outcome meant she hadn't passed - I'm certain we would all have been pragmatic about it, as we hadn't 'tutored'. In our particular case there was no pressure on her and she had the attitude that it wasn't the end of the world if she didn't pass. But, in the fullness of time, it proved to be the right thing for her and she's really excited about starting at her chosen GS this year. Call it luck or whatever, but there is a sense of achievement in what she did and I'm hoping it stands her in good stead.

I will say, there's no right or wrong way here and agree it's a shame the 't' word at the school gates introduces such competitiveness into the process. C'est la vie I suppose!

[DC17C]

I am just pondering this discussion and cannot help thinking yes.... if we are going to do something that is competetive then it is human nature to think it is a good idea to prepare for it. Then there is the question ...where does all the anxiety come from? Well if you are going to compete then there is an element of some passing and some failing then there is going to be anxiety all round.

Anxiety in a parent is going to be felt by the child and then they get stressed..... and find it harder to learn or don't want to try .... because they are stressed....and anxious. The whole process is a nightmare and not terribly good for anyone .....kids who make the grade may think they are somehow superior to everyone else or might feel they have only got here because they had a tutor for years and feel they really don't belong- and that might not be great for their self esteem or ability to relate and get on with other people in the long term .....and all the all the other kids get to feel like failures too....the more I think about it the whole 11 + system the less I like it ...... hmmmm

[cazien]

...the more I think about it the whole 11 + system the less I like it ...... hmmmm

Agree - gone are the days of an "equal" playing field where every year 6 (or 4th year in my day!) sat the exam. No tutors, no money, everyone had a chance, everyone had the same "stress", no-one was under pressure (told just to do the best we could by our teacher!), no-one travelling for miles on trains, buses, taxi etc. for an education.

But then along came bureaucracy, money and an "I want" culture, which stretched to neighbouring counties.

No child that does not qualify should feel a "failure". The parent(s) should feel a failure.

But what is the answer Abolish Grammar Schools, have more Grammar Schools.... a never ending debate I think!