Sale CEM recommendations
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Re: Sale CEM recommendations
if I may interject.
CEM if a con, it plays straight into the hands of middle-class families, kids memorising hundred of advanced vocal words alongside the antonyms and synonyms (nothing to do with a natural love of reading) , yes they know all the words but no idea where to put them!
GL is much fairer, 8x4 familiarisation papers can be purchased with a min of investment and really that's all you need, the fisrt 4 for familiarisation the next 4 for mock tests-job done!
"The gap between the percentage of state and private school pupils passing the so-called "tutor-proof" test has increased by more than three percentage points. About 20% of local state school pupils now pass compared to 70% of private school pupils. According to the data, a child from a Buckinghamshire private school is now more than three and a half times more likely to pass the 11-plus than a child from one of its state primaries."
http://www.theguardian.com/education/20 ... plus-tests" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
MSG papers are harder compared to state 11+ but pass mark is only about 50-60% depending on the cohort and difficulty of papers, but fairer? for whom? middle class kids again imo, so no better.
there is another variant of CEM known as computer adaptive 11 plus used by the Grange School, this computer based CEM test has series of questions, if one question is answered quickly and accurately the next question is harder ,if the candidate can pull it off again the next question is even harder theoretically escalating to to A level standard!, if too much time is taken and/or the answer is wrong it will adapt back to a simpler question.All candidates get to do test appropriate to their individual ability.
Is this any better?
No imo! why ? because no test can accurately test the potential of a 10-11 yr old no matter how sophisticated it is.
Why? because children to not develop/progress in a linear fashion, and in my experience the most successful people I know are overwhelmingly late developers.
CEM if a con, it plays straight into the hands of middle-class families, kids memorising hundred of advanced vocal words alongside the antonyms and synonyms (nothing to do with a natural love of reading) , yes they know all the words but no idea where to put them!
GL is much fairer, 8x4 familiarisation papers can be purchased with a min of investment and really that's all you need, the fisrt 4 for familiarisation the next 4 for mock tests-job done!
"The gap between the percentage of state and private school pupils passing the so-called "tutor-proof" test has increased by more than three percentage points. About 20% of local state school pupils now pass compared to 70% of private school pupils. According to the data, a child from a Buckinghamshire private school is now more than three and a half times more likely to pass the 11-plus than a child from one of its state primaries."
http://www.theguardian.com/education/20 ... plus-tests" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
MSG papers are harder compared to state 11+ but pass mark is only about 50-60% depending on the cohort and difficulty of papers, but fairer? for whom? middle class kids again imo, so no better.
there is another variant of CEM known as computer adaptive 11 plus used by the Grange School, this computer based CEM test has series of questions, if one question is answered quickly and accurately the next question is harder ,if the candidate can pull it off again the next question is even harder theoretically escalating to to A level standard!, if too much time is taken and/or the answer is wrong it will adapt back to a simpler question.All candidates get to do test appropriate to their individual ability.
Is this any better?
No imo! why ? because no test can accurately test the potential of a 10-11 yr old no matter how sophisticated it is.
Why? because children to not develop/progress in a linear fashion, and in my experience the most successful people I know are overwhelmingly late developers.
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Sally-Anne
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- Location: Buckinghamshire
Re: Sale CEM recommendations
I have debunked this sort of article more times than I care to remember. The issues in Bucks go a lot deeper than the state/private comparison and it is naive to believe otherwise."The gap between the percentage of state and private school pupils passing the so-called "tutor-proof" test has increased by more than three percentage points. About 20% of local state school pupils now pass compared to 70% of private school pupils. According to the data, a child from a Buckinghamshire private school is now more than three and a half times more likely to pass the 11-plus than a child from one of its state primaries."
http://www.theguardian.com/education/20 ... plus-tests" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Sale CEM recommendations
please could you indulge me and point me in the right direction with a link ,so I can critique your reasoning.Sally-Anne wrote:I have debunked this sort of article more times than I care to remember
I am genuinely interested
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Sally-Anne
- Posts: 9235
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:10 pm
- Location: Buckinghamshire
Re: Sale CEM recommendations
No. I will not waste my time by indulging you.Catseye wrote:please could you indulge me and point me in the right direction with a link ,so I can critique your reasoning.
I am genuinely interested
Please feel free to research my several thousand posts if you wish to. All the answers you seek are there to be found if you feel strongly about this.
Re: Sale CEM recommendations
fair enough, I won't pursue the issue.Sally-Anne wrote:No. I will not waste my time by indulging you.
but I stand by my assertion because to the best of my knowledge it is correct and in time will be found to be true!
and I would bet my mortgage on it!
Re: Sale CEM recommendations
Catseye I agree no test at 11 years (or 10 years, which is the age most of the children are when they take the test in September) is fair. You are always going to get an uneven playing field with the ones who can afford to tutor, which includes home tutoring as practice papers are not cheap, and those who do not tutor. In addition there are many parents who are not aware of the systems in place and thus have left it to late to either enter/practice for the entrance exams. Without being disrespectful some parents might not be able to tutor/prepare children due to the lack of their own subject knowledge/ confidence.
What makes me laugh and sometimes annoys me at the same time is the secrecy and denials amongst some parents I have always shared advice/ tips when approached by parents because they are aware my eldest sat and passed the exam (not saying i'm an expert
) but there are some parents who think by sharing information regarding tutors names, tips ect will effect their child's success.
It is disgusting that some children are seen as failures at such a young age. I have no doubt the majority of these children are resilient and have supportive parents and will bounce back but there are some who don't. Thus the 11 plus system can have a detrimental effect throughout their secondary school.
The only way secondary moderns can match Grammar Schools academically is by changing their structure in my opinion. Changing entrance exams every so often will not make it an even playing field. Having smaller class sizes, small group support for children with SEN/ behaviour issues in each class as required so they do not stop the rest of class from learning. It only takes one child to change the dynamics of the class.
Lets be honest it is easier to teach to class of 30 children who are motivated to learn (which describes the majority of children in grammar/private schools) then a group of 5 who only attend school because their parents will be fined and they have no interest in learning. The challenge here is to try and engage these children and hopefully excel them academically.
Sorry about the long post.
What makes me laugh and sometimes annoys me at the same time is the secrecy and denials amongst some parents I have always shared advice/ tips when approached by parents because they are aware my eldest sat and passed the exam (not saying i'm an expert
) but there are some parents who think by sharing information regarding tutors names, tips ect will effect their child's success. It is disgusting that some children are seen as failures at such a young age. I have no doubt the majority of these children are resilient and have supportive parents and will bounce back but there are some who don't. Thus the 11 plus system can have a detrimental effect throughout their secondary school.
The only way secondary moderns can match Grammar Schools academically is by changing their structure in my opinion. Changing entrance exams every so often will not make it an even playing field. Having smaller class sizes, small group support for children with SEN/ behaviour issues in each class as required so they do not stop the rest of class from learning. It only takes one child to change the dynamics of the class.
Lets be honest it is easier to teach to class of 30 children who are motivated to learn (which describes the majority of children in grammar/private schools) then a group of 5 who only attend school because their parents will be fined and they have no interest in learning. The challenge here is to try and engage these children and hopefully excel them academically.
Sorry about the long post.
Re: Sale CEM recommendations
How can you say that a test is unfair when it puts all examinees into a level playing field???
I'll take the case of MGS.... MGS has opened their past papers downloadable for ANYONE interested to join MGS for absolutely FREE. This way all prospective pupils know what to expect and what types of exam they will going to encounter on the actual test - the rest may require a little bit of DIY unless the pupil is already familiar with higher algebra like simultaneos equations. Tutor is not necessarily required, the library specially the internet is already full of resources. Most coverage of the test are unique topics which can be learned and answered on the spot unconnected at all to the curriculum. Private tutors is not any good in dealing with unique items, it's all down to the pupil's innate ability... MGS is a real or near tutor proof test. IMHO.
I'll take the case of MGS.... MGS has opened their past papers downloadable for ANYONE interested to join MGS for absolutely FREE. This way all prospective pupils know what to expect and what types of exam they will going to encounter on the actual test - the rest may require a little bit of DIY unless the pupil is already familiar with higher algebra like simultaneos equations. Tutor is not necessarily required, the library specially the internet is already full of resources. Most coverage of the test are unique topics which can be learned and answered on the spot unconnected at all to the curriculum. Private tutors is not any good in dealing with unique items, it's all down to the pupil's innate ability... MGS is a real or near tutor proof test. IMHO.
"A computer would deserve to be called intelligent if it could deceive a human into believing that it was human."- Alan Turing
Re: Sale CEM recommendations
with respect I think you are wrong.enigma wrote: MGS is a real or near tutor proof test. IMHO.
I don't know much about the private/grammar boys schools so I will talk about the girls.
any child passing AGGS will get into WGS (the only school outside the SE in the top 20 in the UK) irrespective of interview/day assessment or whatever
the only reason why MGS,WGS or The Grange School out-perform AGBS is the value-added due to their ethos, expectations , smaller classes ect not because they were selected by a more "tutor-proof" at 11+!!
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Daogroupie
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Re: Sale CEM recommendations
Lots and lots of private schools have their past papers on their website. Take a look at the North London Consortium, they have a lot more than MGS. MGS has a format that is very straightforward for a tutor to prepare a student for. In North London the state selectives and the local private schools have papers a lot harder. The English Comprehension paper in particular always follows the same structure. Preparation would serve a student a lot better than inate ability for that paper.
CEM is much less predictable than this, no past papers and no guaranteed format. I wonder how many boys were crying in last years MGS papers compared to the girls who were crying in the HBS CEM exam. They were crying because they were overwhelmed and confused by the format which they had not been prepared for. DG
CEM is much less predictable than this, no past papers and no guaranteed format. I wonder how many boys were crying in last years MGS papers compared to the girls who were crying in the HBS CEM exam. They were crying because they were overwhelmed and confused by the format which they had not been prepared for. DG
Re: Sale CEM recommendations
Have you compared the MGS Maths to Consortium exams , there is no comparison , I have difficulty with some MGS maths paper 2 questions and I got merit and distinction at S level Pure Maths and Physics receptively from a Comp School , St Thomas More R.C School Willenhall in the Black Country, West Midlands .enigma wrote: Take a look at the North London Consortium,
pull the other one !
English is simple, not really a measure of inane intelligence at 10yrs old, more a measure of upbringing and social class!
