Girls, boys and harassment at school

[Warks mum]

Glad to be of service Amber et al

[Amber]

Mothers who genuinely do want to help their daughters navigate this complex area (and now I know there are lots of us ) might want to have a look at this.

Risks of Shaving

Googling some of the key words (I will let you work them out yourself) will yield more articles ranging from the scholarly to the very colloquial.

[JamesDean]

When running protective behaviour projects with young women, we always discuss expectations. Shaving usually comes up (if not, we introduce it) and asking them which two groups of females lack p*bic hair leads to some fantastic conversations.

JD

[Eccentric]

Interesting thread. Off the most recent meander in this topic and in peril of being lynched for my opinions.... There has been a lot of discussion recently amongst my friends with daughters lately as a result of the teen in a America that was given a 6 month sentence for raping an unconscious girl. My argument is that of course it was wrong for the boy to rape the girl but that we should teach our sons and daughters to keep themselves safe by not drinking or drugging themselves into a paralytic state, that we should encourage them to wear clothes that do not make them look like **** stars etc and that we should educate them in the ways of the world and of course we should teach both sexes about consent.

I have been shocked by many of my friends who say that girls should wear what they like, that the emphasis should be on teaching boys that unless the girl says yes that there is no consent. I think it can be very confusing for teenage boys when confronted with girls who may often be much more sexually mature than them and who dress themselves to entice. Often girls don't know what they want if they have been drinking so give mixed messages that can be hard to read. I often see girls throwing themselves at boys dressed in next to nothing.
My partner had a terrifying experience when he was younger when drunk teenage girl cornered him in a pub loo and threatened that she would shout rape if he didn't have sex with her. He had to say he needed to go to the loo first and climbed out of the window. He was too scared to go back into that pub for years.

My youngest Dd's instagram account is full of her friends even the sensible ones posting provocative pouting semi naked pictures of themselves. That think that because their accounts are "private" that this is OK. I know they friend pretty much anyone because many of them have friended me (no photo) without knowing who I am. One 12 year old (and she was only just 12) posted a video of herself kissing and making out with her boyfriend. None of these images are censored by Instagram yet my daughter had her account blocked for posting a picture of a dissected lambs heart. My oldest daughter was bullied on social media at about the same age but there was definitely no posting of sexualised images a few years ago as there is now. There was a pandemic of "sexting" amongst children in year 7 (that is 11 and 12 year olds) at the school my daughter went to last year and every assembly was filled with the school telling the children not to do it. Yet it continued for the entire year.

This is a serious conversation we need to have with our children and teens.

[mad?]

I have been shocked by many of my friends who say that girls should wear what they like, that the emphasis should be on teaching boys that unless the girl says yes that there is no consent.

I am at a loss to know why getting boys to understand that Yes means Yes and anything else doesn't is shocking. Understanding this one issue, consent, is surely key?

I think it can be very confusing for teenage boys when confronted with girls who may often be much more sexually mature than them and who dress themselves to entice. Often girls don't know what they want if they have been drinking so give mixed messages that can be hard to read.

Another good reason to teach them that they may be misreading those messages, that clothes do not make consent any more than drink does?

This is a serious conversation we need to have with our children and teens.

Agreed.
This police ad makes perfect sense and ALL kids should be shown it, repeatedly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQbei5JGiT8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[ToadMum]

'Whatever I wear, wherever I go - "Yes" means "Yes" and "No" means "No"'.

'Reclaim the Night' movement, mid 1980s.

It saddens me that thirty years after we marched through the streets of London protesting the right not to be molested on the grounds of dress or place there are those who feel that how someone is dressed gives them carte blanche to assume that they are 'asking for it'. Even sadder that there are certain sectors of the young female population who accept that if male persons see a certain part of them (and I am not talking anything mammary or gynaecological here), due to male persons' generic inbuilt inability to 'control their urges', should something ensue which any normal person would regard as rape, it is all the girl's own fault. When this is the message that is being given in the home, I'm not sure how effective outside education will be, but we surely have to try.

That being said, I would not ever suggest that drinking alcohol to the point of insensibility was anything other than a bad thing, but for all kinds of reasons, not just because someone will think it's okay to do things to you to which you would never sensibly have consented to and some observers will think they were justified in doing so.

Sorry, rant over.

However - Eccentric, I am curious as to how you are 'friends' with these young people without them knowing who you really are? As you can probably tell, I'm not particularly prudish (and I have been known to check out our DC's friends on Facebook - I am looking forward to being able to meet one of DS1's, as we appear to have a mutual interest in trains ), but personally, I make it a rule not to accept friend requests from our DC's contemporaries and wouldn't send them friend requests myself. Perhaps I'm just really weird, though.

[Eccentric]

'Whatever I wear, wherever I go - "Yes" means "Yes" and "No" means "No"'.

'Reclaim the Night' movement, mid 1980s.

It saddens me that thirty years after we marched through the streets of London protesting the right not to be molested on the grounds of dress or place there are those who feel that how someone is dressed gives them carte blanche to assume that they are 'asking for it'. Even sadder that there are certain sectors of the young female population who accept that if male persons see a certain part of them (and I am not talking anything mammary or gynaecological here), due to male persons' generic inbuilt inability to 'control their urges', should something ensue which any normal person would regard as rape, it is all the girl's own fault. When this is the message that is being given in the home, I'm not sure how effective outside education will be, but we surely have to try.

That being said, I would not ever suggest that drinking alcohol to the point of insensibility was anything other than a bad thing, but for all kinds of reasons, not just because someone will think it's okay to do things to you to which you would never sensibly have consented to and some observers will think they were justified in doing so.

Sorry, rant over.

However - Eccentric, I am curious as to how you are 'friends' with these young people without them knowing who you really are? As you can probably tell, I'm not particularly prudish (and I have been known to check out our DC's friends on Facebook - I am looking forward to being able to meet one of DS1's, as we appear to have a mutual interest in trains ), but personally, I make it a rule not to accept friend requests from our DC's contemporaries and wouldn't send them friend requests myself. Perhaps I'm just really weird, though.

I agree that it is very sad that we still live in a world where dress is seen as enticement but we do and we have to live with what is reality.

In regards to my Dd's friends that friend me. I don't not accept the requests. I don't even know my Instagram password my daughter set it up. I can only assume that they friend me because I am am my Dd's Instagram friend. This has been a common occurrence and many YP have hundreds of friends, not just people they know.

[Tinkers]

The thing is you only have to look at some of the clothes on offer to even toodler girls to realise the s exualisation of girls starts early. I've already posted a link to the high heels for babies. I've already mentioned the really short shorts. Then there's the skimpy tops, the logos the whole lot. It's got worse in he last decade. Why are we surprised that as teens they still wear revealing clothes etc. That's what has been peddled to them and their parents. We as parents have been buying these clothes for them their whole life. (I personally have bought 'boys' shorts for DD in the past because they are longer, I've avoided skimpy tops etc but you get my drift.)

As for saying girls shouldn't dress a certain way so they don't attract unwanted attention from boys, what does that say about boys? That they are incapable of controlling themselves? It does them a great disservice too. Most are brought up with a great sense of right and wrong.

The recent case in Stanford proves a point. One man attack the woman, but two men found them and helped her. They didn't take advantage of a drunk woman, they knew what to do. #beaswede

Yes getting drunk to that extent is something we should discourage for all sorts of reasons. In this case the woman hadn't drink for quite a while and her alcohol tolerance had dropped and she hadn't realised quite how much. However you can never justify ******** assault because the person was drunk.

As the video on consent says, unconscious people don't want tea. Don't try to give them tea.

[JamesDean]

As the video on consent says, unconscious people don't want tea. Don't try to give them tea.

Love it, it's my favourite consent resource - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZwvrxVavnQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

JD

[PurpleDuck]

As the video on consent says, unconscious people don't want tea. Don't try to give them tea.

Love it, it's my favourite consent resource - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZwvrxVavnQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

JD

That is a great video, just watched it with DS.