Windrush
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Re: Windrush
I agree that I think we were getting to a point of tolerance that felt very positive to me but I suspect that very position was one of the triggers for the Brexit vote.
I'm in a position at work where people feel able to express views to me (they don't always feel so free to repeat them the next time
) but there has always been a significant minority who would comment with the preface "I'm not racist but...." and probably would not talk too openly. In the last two years they don't bother with the preface.
I grew up (not so long ago really?! Born in the early 70s) in Bucks. I don't exaggerate when I say the only non white person I ever met was a Chinese girl at my school whose parents ran a Chinese restaurant right on the edge of the catchment. (But by the time I left my London university and we moved to Hampshire I begged my DH to move back to London with me because it felt unnaturally mono-cultural. However I still know people of my generation who do not have friends etc outside their own ethnicity and who still live in a relative bubble).
But my children don't notice colour - really. It's such a complete non-issue. And it really scares me that we are going back to a time where these things matter to people and where they feel free to express that. With this generation we had the chance to properly end racism and I think we've messed that up with discrimination back in the mainstream.
Yes there was never a fantastically liberal time in our history but it worries me that we will look back and say that we just approaching a decent liberalism in about 2014 and then it all got messed up by this (and the last) government.
I'm in a position at work where people feel able to express views to me (they don't always feel so free to repeat them the next time
) but there has always been a significant minority who would comment with the preface "I'm not racist but...." and probably would not talk too openly. In the last two years they don't bother with the preface.I grew up (not so long ago really?! Born in the early 70s) in Bucks. I don't exaggerate when I say the only non white person I ever met was a Chinese girl at my school whose parents ran a Chinese restaurant right on the edge of the catchment. (But by the time I left my London university and we moved to Hampshire I begged my DH to move back to London with me because it felt unnaturally mono-cultural. However I still know people of my generation who do not have friends etc outside their own ethnicity and who still live in a relative bubble).
But my children don't notice colour - really. It's such a complete non-issue. And it really scares me that we are going back to a time where these things matter to people and where they feel free to express that. With this generation we had the chance to properly end racism and I think we've messed that up with discrimination back in the mainstream.
Yes there was never a fantastically liberal time in our history but it worries me that we will look back and say that we just approaching a decent liberalism in about 2014 and then it all got messed up by this (and the last) government.
Re: Windrush
Wow, look at Francemystery wrote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wor ... f5e6747764
what do you think of this map of racial tolerance?
mad?
Re: Windrush
The map is a very simplistic instrument and behind it lie several different models of national identity as well as situations like recent civil war and inter-ethnic tensions. It is unsurprising really that in countries with a strong sense of religious and cultural identity where there are few foreigners and the ones there are tend to be on the opposite side of a nasty violent divide that people will say they prefer not to have such people living next door.
That said, France is interesting yes and not that shocking when you think about the bubbling undercurrents of racial tension in the big cities. I think people in England lied! Like you, LL, I know many people of our generation who have no friends outside their own narrow culture - sadly these also tend in my experience to be the ones shouting loudest for Brexit, supporting 'strong and stable' TM and blaming all of our ills on immigration and foreigners who come and 'take our jobs and sponge off our NHS blah blah blah'.
Two books which might interest those seeking a deeper understanding of intercultural relations and nationalism worldwide are Edward Said's classic 'Orientalism' and the newer 'Banal Nationalism' By Michael Billig - the former helping to define how we view 'the other' and the latter suggesting among other things that patriotism and nationalism are only seen as different because 'we' express one of them and 'they' express the other.
That said, France is interesting yes and not that shocking when you think about the bubbling undercurrents of racial tension in the big cities. I think people in England lied! Like you, LL, I know many people of our generation who have no friends outside their own narrow culture - sadly these also tend in my experience to be the ones shouting loudest for Brexit, supporting 'strong and stable' TM and blaming all of our ills on immigration and foreigners who come and 'take our jobs and sponge off our NHS blah blah blah'.
Two books which might interest those seeking a deeper understanding of intercultural relations and nationalism worldwide are Edward Said's classic 'Orientalism' and the newer 'Banal Nationalism' By Michael Billig - the former helping to define how we view 'the other' and the latter suggesting among other things that patriotism and nationalism are only seen as different because 'we' express one of them and 'they' express the other.
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Daogroupie
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Re: Windrush
Why was Hitler able to "convert" the German nation so quickly to the idea that Jewish citizens were not entitled to jobs, housing, schooling and finally citizenship itself?
Why did the Germans abandon friendships, neighbours and work colleagues so easily? People they had known for years.
It is really important that outrage is expressed over what has been done to the Windrush generation so that we can distance ourselves from this behaviour and make it clear that we do not agree with it.
Had more German citizens done this in the 1930s then it would not have been so easy for Hitler to make "normal" his treatment of the Jews.
It was a cross party signing of 140 MPS that finally got Windrush to be discussed in the House of Commons.
This is how democracy should work, we "the people" are able to express how we feel about decisions made in our name by the government.
If we do this then we can keep our democracy on track.
The Windrush generation were invited here as British citizens but the paperwork was screwed up just like the poor Athlete that was not allowed to compete in the Commonwealth games because her form was not filled in properly.
Hopefully it will shortly become an example of something "the people" were able to sort out through democratic processes and will give hope to others who find themselves the victims of injustice. DG
Why did the Germans abandon friendships, neighbours and work colleagues so easily? People they had known for years.
It is really important that outrage is expressed over what has been done to the Windrush generation so that we can distance ourselves from this behaviour and make it clear that we do not agree with it.
Had more German citizens done this in the 1930s then it would not have been so easy for Hitler to make "normal" his treatment of the Jews.
It was a cross party signing of 140 MPS that finally got Windrush to be discussed in the House of Commons.
This is how democracy should work, we "the people" are able to express how we feel about decisions made in our name by the government.
If we do this then we can keep our democracy on track.
The Windrush generation were invited here as British citizens but the paperwork was screwed up just like the poor Athlete that was not allowed to compete in the Commonwealth games because her form was not filled in properly.
Hopefully it will shortly become an example of something "the people" were able to sort out through democratic processes and will give hope to others who find themselves the victims of injustice. DG
Re: Windrush
I think rather than it being 'the people', in this case it is actually 'The Guardian'. The media does have a fourth estate role of holding the powerful to account on behalf of the governed - this is an example of them actually doing so. It is a pity so much of our media is controlled by unpalatable business interests which are in bed with the conservative party - there might be a more robust challenge to this kind of thing if we had a more diverse press.
Re: Windrush
Yes Amber, I thought the English lied too when I read that map! And the Americans. But it is a little old. Maybe it was done in the elusive golden age of tolerance or some people were just being dishonestly PC in their responses and now they they feel more able to express their real views.
It still catches me out when someone I didn't realise was racist says something that I consider to be racist. I don't know what to say and then it leaves me feeling terrible afterwards that I have let this thing pass just as though I feel it to be "normal" when I don't. An example is a school family that moved away from West Kent ( culturally almost 100% white British origins is my impression) to Poole in Dorset. Afterwards, one of the parents said to me how great it was to have moved to somewhere where everyone was white. I was lost for words. I guess though if a stranger knocked on her door and asked whether she would be happy with someone of a different race living next door she would say that was just fine.
It still catches me out when someone I didn't realise was racist says something that I consider to be racist. I don't know what to say and then it leaves me feeling terrible afterwards that I have let this thing pass just as though I feel it to be "normal" when I don't. An example is a school family that moved away from West Kent ( culturally almost 100% white British origins is my impression) to Poole in Dorset. Afterwards, one of the parents said to me how great it was to have moved to somewhere where everyone was white. I was lost for words. I guess though if a stranger knocked on her door and asked whether she would be happy with someone of a different race living next door she would say that was just fine.
Re: Windrush
That's awful! I would have definitely said something there - it is hard to challenge it but you kind of have to I think. Mind you, last time I was in Dorset we had 3 very young children and were made to feel very unwelcome in restaurants and shops. And my lot were very used to eating out from when they were tiny and never ever misbehaved or made a load of noise in such places. One woman complained to staff in a bistro place as my littlest was in a pram and she said it 'lowered the tone' to have a pram in there and she 'hope(d) it wouldn't be breastfeeding next'. Unfortunately OH rose to the bait and argued back at her - not pretty and the older two children who were 5 and 3 were really upset. I have always thought of that when Dorset is mentioned though I am sure (at least I hope I am!) that it was not representative and that things have moved on.
Challenging friends and acquaintances who hold views one doesn't agree with is hard, but I am afraid as I have got older I do it more and more. I have several close friends, colleagues and family members who are gay and if people spout anti-gay stuff now I always challenge it; ditto Muslims of whom I count several as good friends. I think challenge at the roots is really important and genuinely can help to change opinions in ways which legislation and rules from 'on high' can't. My life is so much richer for the diversity of my friends and colleagues and I genuinely feel that people who immerse themselves in monoculture miss out tremendously.
Challenging friends and acquaintances who hold views one doesn't agree with is hard, but I am afraid as I have got older I do it more and more. I have several close friends, colleagues and family members who are gay and if people spout anti-gay stuff now I always challenge it; ditto Muslims of whom I count several as good friends. I think challenge at the roots is really important and genuinely can help to change opinions in ways which legislation and rules from 'on high' can't. My life is so much richer for the diversity of my friends and colleagues and I genuinely feel that people who immerse themselves in monoculture miss out tremendously.
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PerpetualStudent
- Posts: 531
- Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:52 am
Re: Windrush
+1Amber wrote: Challenging friends and acquaintances who hold views one doesn't agree with is hard, but I am afraid as I have got older I do it more and more. I have several close friends, colleagues and family members who are gay and if people spout anti-gay stuff now I always challenge it; ditto Muslims of whom I count several as good friends. I think challenge at the roots is really important and genuinely can help to change opinions in ways which legislation and rules from 'on high' can't. My life is so much richer for the diversity of my friends and colleagues and I genuinely feel that people who immerse themselves in monoculture miss out tremendously.
Taika Waititi did a brilliant little video on racism easily found on YouTube. Funny and thought provoking.
https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national ... rom-racism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Edited 1x to add video reference
Re: Windrush
My namesake has just resigned as she realised you can't pretend not to have seen a memo you have actually replied to. But what about May? She knew about or was responsible for exactly the same things which caused Rudd to resign and has been telling barefaced lies in Parliament about it for several weeks. Just as I am amazed that Trump is still in office, so I am shocked that this shambolic apology of a government is managing to cling to power.
Re: Windrush
We just had a little cheer when we saw that. However I am wondering with some trepidation who she'll get to do the job now... Hoping against hope that Hunt gets moved from health but not holding my breath.