bright children 'dragged down' at secondary schools

[sj355]

I totally agree.My daughter only prepared 10 weeks before exams.I wanted her to be able to cope with the demands of a grammar school.

My sons's school is crap and recently placed in special measures. If I had not tutored him myself in Maths and had not got a tutor for 1.5 hours per week in English he never would have passed any of the tests he did, not because he is not able but because no-one would have bothered to teach him the material that they test. The only overcoaching I will confess to is that I continued to send him at school during this period which was completely useless! And by the way he suddenly jumped from below average to top of the class in all subjects within two months in Year 5 (as sson as the tutoring started) and he still is there. How miraculous !

[patricia]

I firmly believe that an average child CANNOT pass the 11 plus with extensive coaching, there will always be the odd one that sneaks in but will not be the norm.

They can be taught the codes [good old rote learning] but they are not quick enough in the Maths and as for the Vocab, it's such a huge problem even with the 'bright' children.

In addition they would NOT be able to score the 'obligatory' high score WITHIN the time limits.

You do find some children that have passed after 2/3 years of coaching but those same children would have passed with less than a years coaching, ie some tutors taking parents for a ride.

You do find some children who cannot cope at the Grammars but that's not necessarily down to over coaching. I have seen a number of children withdraw from the grammar system to go back into a private education, they could not cope with large classes of 30, used to classes of 10/15, receiving far more attention.

Patricia

[sj355]

You do find some children who dont cope at the Grammars but thats not necessarily down to over coaching. I have seen a number of children withdraw from the grammar sytem to go back into a private education....they could not cope with large classes of 30...used to classes of 10/15, receiving far more attention.

Well in QE in Barnet where my son has passed, while 180 enter only 120 continue post 16 (the school does not take outside pupils in its sixth form) Is it because they can not cope? They answer is yes, they can not cope without...girls!! Hence the majority switch to Latymer (another excellent albeit co-ed school), MHC (ditto) and Woodside College which is a highly selective A levels only school (yes, co-ed!). I would not stop my kid either if that became an issue

[Bo Peep]

Unfortunately this is not the case where LEAs do not have grammar schools. The children are all grouped together in a Comprehensive school, sometimes starting at Level 3. This is because the National target for Comprehensive schools at KS3 is Level 5. It used to be Level 6 but Comprehensive schools found this target impossible to attain.

Is this true? How do you know that? I'm not doubting it at all though, just would like to know how you came by this info.

My friend is Head of Science at a grammar school and said he wishes that the admissions process looked beyond 11plus tests because now (he has been in teaching for many many years) he is frequently shocked at children who are supposedly the most academically suited to the school and yet are achieving far below the expected level, particularly in subjects like English. A very good command of English is vital since it will affect many subjects - science, history, RS, Geography...etc...

I have to say though that my eldest son (at grammar) is the only boy in his form who is not tutored for any subjects, whereas many have private maths tutors, attend Saturday school etc... Also my son was the only (to the best of our knowledge) child who did not have a tutor prior to the 11+ test.

Seems to me if you get your child in by sending him/her to a tutor then you'd better be prepared (in most cases) to continue tutoring right through grammar school.

Of course all of this depends on the standard of education at the grammar - at the one my son is at the competition is fierce (which he loves!).

Patricia makes a good point about coaching - we felt that despite our son being clearly very able and in real need of a grammar school education we had to look at practice papers together otherwise he never would have stood a chance - especially against tutored kids.

Another good point Patricia makes about kids dropping out and going back to private education...hadn't thought of that, but can see how it could easily be the case.

I'm always cautious about talking about this particular subject.I really don't want to offend anyone. When all is said and done, we all want to do the best for our kids...don't shoot me, okay....I've got a headache today.

[Sally-Anne]

Well......

I firmly believe that an average child CANNOT pass the 11 plus with extensive coaching. [there will always be the odd one that sneeks in but will not be the norm]

We may have to agree to differ on this Patricia! One of the cases I refer to was state-educated, coached for 2 years and achieved 126 at 11+. Hard-working and diligent, but has struggled at GS since Day One - now predicted really poor GCSE results. The issue has increasingly become one of confidence over the years, but that doesn't change the fact that there was a serious issue from the outset.

I think the Bucks system does throw up freak cases like this, and with another subject/ability test, these would conceivably disappear. Perhaps the issue is that certain children can perform to a "just good enough standard" in VR, and thus the degree of coaching is irrelevant, but just can't perform as well in school subjects where other skills are required? For example, a child with poor memory retention might cope with the instant nature of the 11+ questions, but be unable to perform in exams requiring an accumulation of learning?

Sally-Anne

[sj355]

My friend is Head of Science at a grammar school and said he wishes that the admissions process looked beyond 11plus tests because now (he has been in teaching for many many years) he is frequently shocked at children who are supposedly the most academically suited to the school and yet are achieving far below the expected level, particularly in subjects like English. A very good command of English is vital since it will affect many subjects - science, history, RS, Geography...etc...

There is something rotten with their admissions system then. The system followed by some grammar schools in North London is two rounds of tests (first VR & NVR) and then if you surive the competition Maths and English in the second round. This should do the trick.

Code: Select all

I have to say though that my eldest son (at grammar)  is the only boy in his form who is not tutored for any subjects, whereas many have private maths tutors, attend Saturday school etc...  Also my son was the only (to the best of our knowledge) child who did not have a tutor prior to the 11+ test.  

Any kid that managed this at the grammar which my kid will be attending would be a wonder boy! The homework flow is simply relentless; there is no time for tutoring after school. As for Saturday school, I dread the day. He has been going to his Greek Saturday school (and Wednesday evenings) since he was 6. I simply do not know how we will fit this when he starts grammar!

Seems to me if you get your child in by sending him/her to a tutor then you'd better be prepared (in most cases) to continue tutoring right through grammar school.

Of course all of this depends on the standard of education at the grammar - at the one my son is at the competition is fierce (which he loves!).

Of course it depends at the standards of education at the grammar. If these are OK then no tutoring will be needed. The same applies for primary schools.

[sj355]

Well......

I firmly believe that an average child CANNOT pass the 11 plus with extensive coaching. [there will always be the odd one that sneeks in but will not be the norm]

We may have to agree to differ on this Patricia! One of the cases I refer to was state-educated, coached for 2 years and achieved 126 at 11+. Hard-working and diligent, but has struggled at GS since Day One - now predicted really poor GCSE results. The issue has increasingly become one of confidence over the years, but that doesn't change the fact that there was a serious issue from the outset.

I think the Bucks system does throw up freak cases like this, and with another subject/ability test, these would conceivably disappear. Perhaps the issue is that certain children can perform to a "just good enough standard" in VR, and thus the degree of coaching is irrelevant, but just can't perform as well in school subjects where other skills are required? For example, a child with poor memory retention might cope with the instant nature of the 11+ questions, but be unable to perform in exams requiring an accumulation of learning?

Sally Anne,

Perhaps the case that you mention is the odd one out that Patricia allows for? But I do agree with you: a selection system based on VR alone may simply not be sufficient to capture ability on its own.

[patricia]

Dear Sally-Anne

Will definitely have to agree to disagree.

We may have to agree to differ on this Patricia! One of the cases I refer to was state-educated, coached for 2 years and achieved 126 at 11+. Hard-working and diligent, but has struggled at GS since Day One - now predicted really poor GCSE results. The issue has increasingly become one of confidence over the years, but that doesn't change the fact that there was a serious issue from the outset.

This sounds more like personality than 'intelligence,' the reason for non performing is not necessarily down to over coaching.

I think the Bucks system does throw up freak cases like this, and with another subject/ability test, these would conceivably disappear.

As you say 'freak' cases, but this means, as I stated above, its not the norm.

Bucks didn't want to 'bother' administering more than 1 style of test, therefore the introduction of the extra 6 types and why the tests include an element of Maths in addition to the VR. I am not necessarily advocating VR alone, there are many arguments for and against this one. Nfer seem ok with it as do Bucks.

For example, a child with poor memory retention might cope with the instant nature of the 11+ questions, but be unable to perform in exams requiring an accumulation of learning?

A child with poor memory retention would not be able to pass the 11 plus.

Patricia

[SPUD]

My son was not tutored for the 11+. We went through some papers from about 8 weeks before - it isn't taught in his school either.

He has been admitted on appeal and I hope he wont struggle at Grammar. I suspect that being on the lower end of the Grammar scale is still higher than the top of our local comp!

I think it comes down to the personality of the child - some are very competative and like to be 'top of the class'. As long as they are happy at the school, thats all that counts - whether they be in bottom or top set! Some kids fly through the 11+, dont struggle at grammar, but have a real bad attitude and just dont achieve.

[Mike]

Hi

The information regarding students attaining Level 5s in Primary school then starting at Level 4 or Level 3 at Comprehensive school is common knowledge.

I also have personal knowledge of this through my tutoring business. Some people may not be aware that our business used to cover both primary years including 11+ and high school subject areas up to GCSE.

I can re-call significantly more than one student from Calday Grammar School and West Kirby Grammar school who were intensively coached to pass the 11+ verbal reasoning tests and have struggled with the pressures of the Grammar school.

I personally have tutored students from both of these schools whose school assesments for GCSE Mathematics was a "D" grade, based on mock exam results. The equivalent of a Key Stage Level 6.

Patricia, the entrance into these grammar schools is far less competitive than your experiences in Bucks.

Also, I have to be vague on this whole area in case a student could identify themselves or be identified by others

sj355

I believe that you believe that you are right!!!

Regards

Mike