Is it true that tutored children struggle afterwards?

[Enjoyingthejourney]

So how do you propose we measure how a child is 'naturally clever'?

[Aethel]

It's fine to say "check natural ability" but there are always folk who will try to game any system you devise. This is the nature of "choice" in education.
So like it or not, this is the system we are all within. It's a pain, but it is what it is.

So those parents who rely on matural ability alone are perfectly okay to do so, but they are not comparing like with like and may well do their kids a disservice by doing so.

[kelwaypops]

One doesn't 'measure how clever a child is naturally' ffs. Leave a child to just 'be' if they are happy and doing well at school. It is one thing for a child to have extra tuition if they are struggling at school, i think this is a good thing. It is very different tutoring a child that doesn't really need it if they are doing well at school in an attempt to 'buy' their way into a GS. Competitive parenting... I know I am alone in this view on the 11 Plus Website so I agree to disagree. As i have already said, I in part respect it/think it commendable to be so involved with a childs academic achievements but only to a point. To be honest, I find it irritating observing some parents obsession/almost quest like, to get their child into Oxford/Cambridge. Is it for their childs honour or theirs?........ Enough said

[salsa]

One doesn't 'measure how clever a child is naturally' ffs. Leave a child to just 'be' if they are happy and doing well at school. It is one thing for a child to have extra tuition if they are struggling at school, i think this is a good thing. It is very different tutoring a child that doesn't really need it if they are doing well at school in an attempt to 'buy' their way into a GS. Competitive parenting... I know I am alone in this view on the 11 Plus Website so I agree to disagree. As i have already said, I in part respect it/think it commendable to be so involved with a childs academic achievements but only to a point. To be honest, I find it irritating observing some parents obsession/almost quest like, to get their child into Oxford/Cambridge. Is it for their childs honour or theirs?........ Enough said

The problem is that we don't agree what a grammar school is for. They were created for social mobility and now some think they are teaching institutions for the clever children; others think they are for academic children and a lot of us are just looking for a good school.
If we think they are for clever children, then we would have to measure intelligence at a very tender age. Current test do not achieve this goal as you may be clever but not have learnt much for different reasons. So, if we select the clever and knowledgeable children, again we might not be fair as some will be more knowledgeable than others due to their schooling and environment. This is the current situation. I don't think most of us will want to give our young children extra work, but the competition is fierce and parents do not want to take risks of not preparing their children. Some may over prepare in turn forcing others to follow suit. It's a vicious circle.
So, it's an imperfect system, but depending on how super selective your area is, you may be forced into playing it. Else, if you have a good comprehensive alternative, you can choose not to join the race.
So, the issue is very complex. All I can say is that both my boys are incredibly proud of having put the extra effort to pass their 11+.

This issue has been discussed in this forum many times and you are not the only person who feels this way. If we had had a wonderful comprehensive at our doorstep we wouldn't have bothered with exams at such a tender age.

Salsa

[kelwaypops]

You make some good points Salsa, I agree with what you have said. I must add that not all children who go to a pre-prep are academically ahead/better prepared when compared to state educated primary children. I always thought they would be superior academically but have discovered this is not necessarily the case. I get your point about measuring different levels of being clever/fairness when measuring.

[salsa]

I also agree. I do know prep educated children who weren't that well prepared and as pointed out up thread, some children do require one to one tuition. They just don't do very well when taught in groups, whether they are in prep schools or not.
Moreover, we haven't even mentioned the late developers! It seems that this government would like to address this issue by having entry points at 12 and 13. I would agree with this in principle, but in practice I do hope that those children are helped so that they can catch up if they have knowledge gaps.

Salsa

[Eccentric]

Being a hypocrite who sends her child to a GS but is essentially anti GS and pro a completely comprhensive system with no indies to muddy the waters. i know that there are some comprehensives that work but as far as I can see they are essentially in quite affluent and high aspirational areas and have a high intake of motivated young people who have parents that are interested in their education.
My view is that rather than concentrating on the school system as a country we need to be looking at working with parents and very young children. Pre reading skills and love for knowledge are very important and almost all the work that was being done in this area has gone by the wayside with cuts, as has parenting work. children need to have a reason to learn and if they have no aspiration because their parents tell them that for people like them there is no point then they will see no point and will be disengaged with school. All the evidence shows that inate intelleigence is irrelevant if the understanding that working at things and practice is the way to achieve is not there.
I see nothing wrong with a vocational route for some. We almost all eventually end up on the vocational path unless we are academics anyway and it would be beneficial for the economy as a whole and for many individual young people if they started on that vocational route earlier. We would have less YP who leave school with a useless degree and no aspiration or idea of what they want to do.

[Enjoyingthejourney]

Eccentric, I agree with most of your points. However, I think that with regard to education children need to develop a love for learning simply for the acquisition of knowledge. Our schools are by and large factories from which an employable workforce will emerge, and sometimes not even that. When that becomes the focus, learning turns into pressure or even disillusion. For that reason many children won't even look at anything that ressembles 'work' outside of a classroom.
Am I 'tutoring' my child when we look at poetry in the evening? For many this would look like something done in school and others would argue that I am giving my child an unfair advantage over others who do not spend their spare time as such. For us, we just enjoy poetry.

[Eccentric]

Eccentric, I agree with most of your points. However, I think that with regard to education children need to develop a love for learning simply for the acquisition of knowledge. Our schools are by and large factories from which an employable workforce will emerge, and sometimes not even that. When that becomes the focus, learning turns into pressure or even disillusion. For that reason many children won't even look at anything that ressembles 'work' outside of a classroom.
Am I 'tutoring' my child when we look at poetry in the evening? For many this would look like something done in school and others would argue that I am giving my child an unfair advantage over others who do not spend their spare time as such. For us, we just enjoy poetry.

ETJ I agree in entirety with what you are saying. This was exactly the point that I was unsuccessfully trying to get across. Love for learning just for learning's sake is what needs to be taught at an early age and of course that needs to be carried on into school. Like yours, my children have an unfair advantage because I take them to museums and the theatre. I read to them and enjoy cultural pursuits with them. I enjoy learning and concverstagtion myself (which is why I am addicted to this forum). Many children don't have that and without help for their parents to give that to them they will never get it. I believe that all parents want the best for their children but many don't know how to give it.
There will always be some young people who are disengaged with the standard education system and for them it would make more sense to do something that they can see a use for like learning to be an electrician or a plumber of a farrier or a Nurseryman and those professions should be given as good a press as being an office worker or nurse or teacher. We need them all. Young people should not feel that the only route they have to success is an academic one.

[loobylou]

We need them all. Young people should not feel that the only route they have to success is an academic one.

I cannot agree more. I work in a relatively deprived area where this generation is almost always the first to go to uni. On the one hand it is great that some young people are being encouraged to go to university which is absolutely the right route for them. On the other hand I see others who are pushed in that direction, who struggle hugely, repeating years (often more than once), coming out in ridiculous amounts of debt and still unable to get a job that pays a lot more than the minimum wage - and who would have been far far better off looking at more vocational courses.